Curse

Galatea · Jul 14, 2005, 09:37 AM // 09:37

It's been a while now since the release of this game, and I have to admit, I haven't devoted as much time to this game as I did in the beginning. Yes, this is a game intended for casual gamers, but what can ArenaNet do to keep its current players still playing? I finished all the missions in the game, have a set of armor from Droknar's Forge, and have done some PvP. I've done a number of runes in Fissure of Woe and The Underworled, and have snagged every available quest there is with my professions.

I love the PvE aspect of this game, probably much more than I love the PvP aspect. However, I can't help but feel that the game is lacking.. something. It lacks social aspects, and the PvE aspects of the game itself feel quite artificial. I never actually 'roleplayed' when I played in other MMORPG's, because I'm not really into that.. but the gameplay did at least make me feel like I was the character. I enjoyed the occasional /wave to greet others and the /bow after trading transactions.. but with Guild Wars, I feel that I don't know anybody. I've rarely met anyone else that communicates to other uses with their actual characters - I feel that I am communicating with players themselves, which takes away from the fantasy of the game. I have no incentive to actually remember anyone in this game. The people on my friends list eventaully get deleted because I can't even remember who these people are or why I added them in the first place.

The game also lacks fun novelty items and incentives to continue playing the game. Once you've beat the game, all that's left is repeating the UW/FoW quests, some PvP, re-playing with another character, or just waiting until the next fun updates (like the Observer Mode and new areas arriving this summer). I also feel that this game lacks the kind of rewards that keeps players playing.

Forgive me if I get a little side-tracked, since I was talking to a friend about this earlier, and it's 2:00am that I am writing this out.

The two of us talked about the improvements and possible suggestions we would like to offer to ArenaNet to make gameplay more enjoyable in the PvE aspect, whether that is what you're all about, or whether you just need a break from all the PvP and fighting/questing action.

Following, I will be discussing a number of suggestions that, down to the basics, promotes incentives and rewards for those that play the game a lot, without giving players a 'super elite' advantage over others.

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Questable Armors
Currently, there are Collector's Sets of armor. These are wonderful rewards for those that take the time to do the 'quests' and find the items required. They look different from other armors you can buy, setting you apart from the masses, without having 'super elite' stronger armor.

Also available are the infamous 15K Armor and FoW Armor Sets. Now, there is a problem in attaining these, especially with the FoW sets which currently cost an arm, a leg, and your first born child. Last time I checked (which was about an hour ago), ecto was going for almost 13K a piece, bringing the total for just that material well over 100K if you were to buy these. Of course, you could farm them, but I'll say now, with my many trips to FoW/UW, I have never seen ecto drop for me. Not once. But is farming really an option? Well, it's not supposed to be, according to ArenaNet. ANet wants players to enjoy their time as they play this game. They don't want players to feel obliged to 'farm' for money or items in order to get what they want out of the game. This isn't about me complaining because I can't obtain the armor -- personally, I'm actually quite happy with my regular 1.5K Droknar's Aeromancer Set, because the stats are exactly the same as on the other available armors, and I actually like the look of the outfit. The armor costs 15K a piece, for a total of 60-75k, plus materials. It is nearly impossible to attain this kind of money without farming. Unless monsters drop piles of platinum when killed, I can't attain these armors through 'normal gameplay'.

So - with that said, why should the cosmetic armors be available for large sums of money? My suggestion, is to make these kinds of armors questable. The quests should be challenging, with fun monsters/bosses to kill. Maybe with a difficulty level slightly higher than that of a mission, so that in order to complete the quest, you would need to strategize and cooperate with your group. That's what GW is about, right? Strategy. This is not a game about having money.

Armor Quests would be something players could look forward to, after completing all the game has to offer (missions, quests, ascension, etc.). They could invest their time into challening but fun quests, with the reward of receiving a single piece of armor. A total of five quests would then reward you with the complete set. Each quest should be different, or in different locations, so that there is more diversity in the game, and so that players won't feel like they are repeating the same thing over and over. Additionally, because the stats are the exact same as the 1.5K Droknar's Sets, players won't have to feel 'forced to grind' because these Armor Quests are completely OPTIONAL. Players who have fnished the game can look forward to fun extra side-quests such as these Armor Quests, being rewarded for the time they placed into the game, without becoming super elite or better than another player.

As of right now, people dedicate hours into farming for the money & materials needed for the armor. Because of its cosmetic value, it is definitely something that should be worked for.. however, since farming is 'boring and repetitive' and shunned on by ANet, we should instead dedicate our hours into something positive for the game, which would be these Armor Quests.

These quests should also help add to the social aspects, as people can agree to work together for a common goal: attaining a new piece of armor from the Armor Quests. And once you are wearing them, you will receive the benefit of comments from other players, "Oh great job! I see you finished the Armor Quests and got them! That's a lot of hard work, it looks great." Yes, players who dedicate more time into the game because they choose to will be rewarded, and no they will not have an advantage over those that choose not to do these quests.

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Novelty Items
What this game also needs, basically, is useless, fun novelty items and events.

I never see people sitting around and talking in this game. All the chat in this game is either "LFG LFG LFG" or "WTS WTB WTT", and nothing else. Sometimes, you might want to come onto to the game just to play, by yourself or with friends, but you're not in the mood to fight, or don't have time for an intense PvP match or PvE mission.

I'd like to see community events or items that players can enjoy. Those who have the money for these items, or those that do quests for these items, will have the benefit/reward of using or participating, again without having an advantage over other players.

We need items in this game that are fun to have, that serve no REAL benefit, but that players can work for if they choose to. Many threads have covered these, but I want to reiterate them: furniture & decor for guild halls, town clothing, and extra novelty items -- more varieties of food and drink (such as dwarven ale), fireworks, flowers to be given as gifts (such as the flowers we gave Gwen, however these can be given to other players), etc. As useless as these items may sound, players will invest money and time into them, and this will give players something to do when they're not fighting/questing, or have finished all that the PvE has to offer.

I think the GW community is divided 50/50 over the issue of crafting, and I will state that I am on the side that promotes it. I believe that, as long as any crafting serves no real benefit to other characters, but serves more of a useless but fun purpose, then crafting will be acceptable. When I played the WoW beta for maybe 2 days, I enjoyed that I had chosen the medicine craft -- not because I wanted to be able to heal myself after fighting, but simply because I thought it was kind of funny that I could actually craft bandaids out of some linen or something. Or, in FFXI, I had chosen Cooking as my craft - I could've chosen anything more productive, such as the crafts that were related to the creation of armor and weapons.. but I crafted foods that sometimes weren't even beneficial statswise, just because it was fun to see my character create a Sweet Apple Pie or Orange Juice drink.

What could fit into the GW environment? How about, in your spare time, training in Dwarven cities to become a bartender of some sorts. You could learn to mix various types of Dwarven Ale. These ales could also be available for purchase from merchants, so it wasn't required to become a bartender to mix drinks.. however, I know there are many that wouldn't mind passing the time mixing their own drinks for themselves and/or for their friends.

Other crafts could include the making of furniture for your Guild Hall, making novelty items like fireworks/confetti/party poppers to use when celebrating events (like the leveling up of another character, the completion of a difficult mission, winning a round in Tombs). Some players are non-enthusiastic about these 'joyous' in game-events. Sometimes there's an occasional 'congrats' or 'gg' or group /dance, but that's it, and that's rare.

Even food items in-game would be funny to see. Food should serve no benefit of any kind, no temporary stat/energy/health boosts, no nothing. Sometimes in our Warrior's Isle of our guild hall, a few of us stand at the pirate ship and type /fish just for the heck of it and to laugh over it.. I know, fishing can be boring. Most people don't wanna hit the same button over and over -- but those who did 'fish' or did other time-consuming crafts in other MMORPGS, admit that it was enjoyable because it was something you could do while you socialized with other players. I picked up the fishing craft in FFXI not because it was profitable (because let me tell you, I barely broke even), but because if I had a spare 10 minutes or so, and two of my friends or linkshell members (linkshell is similar to a guild) were /fishing somewhere, I'd travel over there and /fish next to them and we'd talk about, well, whatever. When you go fishing in life, it's not entirely about catching the fish for eating/selling, but it's about the fun you have with your buddies on the boat as you're fishing, and the good talks you have as you're waiting for them to bite.

To prevent these crafts from becoming huge money-makers, etc.. have the fish have a value of 1 gold at merchants, or even unsellable, only destroyable or consumable.. and make sure they serve no real use (not to be used for quests, missions, armor, etc.). Maybe eating the fish raw would make your character hold their tummy and act like they had a tummy-ache for example.

Of course, everything I'm saying is hypothetical, but I'm just trying to stress that, while these additions to the game may seem totally useless, they will keep players interested in the game well after completing the last mission.

And with the addition of very rewarding quests (like Armor Quests), players will spend their time earning the rewards in a way that Arenanet intended them to -- through regular gameplay, rather than through excessive farming.

I'm sure I could have elaborated on this post more, and there is so much room for more suggestions and comments, and I would love to hear what you all have to think. I am about ready to fall asleep now.. -_-;;

EmperorTippy · Jul 14, 2005, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Likes it all.

suzumebachi · Jul 14, 2005, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I definately agree that there needs to be more stuff to do after hell's precipace. People have raised the idea of Guild-based quests/missions and things. I'd be all for that. I'm not sure about questing for armor, but it couldn't hurt (since stats are all the same anyways, and ANet claims the game is about strategy, not gear). As far as novelty items go, the more the merrier. The game could use a few more gold sinks anyways.

Galatea · Jul 14, 2005, 10:10 AM // 10:10

I'd like to go into more depth about the Armor Quests idea..

Rather than spend endless hours farming for 15K + materials to purchase armor, I think it would be much more fun, worthwhile, and rewarding to quest for the armor instead. I will now refer to these 15K/FoW armors as 'End-Game Armor'. Now, this end-game armor is completely optional, since the stats are exactly the same as the 1.5K Droknar's sets. However, everyone knows that the cosmetic designs of these armors is something new and different.

These quests should have a pre-requisite of completing the last mission in the Ring of Fire in order to trigger the quest. The quest difficulty should be comparable to a mission, or perhaps even the UW/Fissure. All these places generally require a party, strategy, teamwork and cooperation. This is something guild-members can look forward to working on together, a group of friends, or even PUGs with a common goal of attaining this armor. Working together, parties should work their way through a map, completing tasks, until the quest/mission is complete.. the reward being a handful of experience, as well as a single piece of end-game armor. This should then trigger a second quest, in which the reward will be your second piece of armor.. and so forth.

Rather than wasting time worring about 'Can I afford this? Should I waste my gold on this? Am I going to have to buy gold on eBay?', players can look forward to grouping together with other players to perform these tasks and earning the armor instead. As directly quoted from The Guild Wars website, "The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork." This would do exactly that -- reward them for their skill and teamwork, and not for reading fansites about awesome farming builds & runs, or for downloading farming bots, or even working a real job to purchase gold on eBay.

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I've played other games that involved questable armor and items, and these were quests that guild members and can friends looked forward to working on, after completing everything else the game had to offer. The members of my guild are very casual in their playing style, so some haven't even defeated the last mission of the game yet.. with the addition of quests like these, my guild members would have more reason to log on, and we'd have more things to actually do together. For those who have been wanting more guild-oriented implementations into the game, this could be considered one.

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Additionally, I would like to see fancy weapons available as rewards, too. Stats-wise, the same as others, but cosmetic appearance is what people would be working for. Something new and unique and that players would desire (like the Chaos Axe or Fiery Dragon Sword). With good modifiers, of course (like the Crystal Desert collectors, who offer the perfect 20/20 items).

I would like to bring up that these perfect modifiers are so rare to find in PvE. I find it a little bit unfair that, some players work hard in searching for weapons that offer good stats.. and that newcomers to Guild Wars can select a ready-made PvP character that has a perfect 20/20 weapon, without doing any work.

Which brings up a question: why have the random percentage on modifiers at all? No one cares if recharge time has a 3% chance of increasing.. everyone wants the perfect 20/20s, but on the fancy items, not the collector's stuff.

Mehhhh.

Magus · Jul 14, 2005, 11:10 AM // 11:10

I agree. The novelty items is one good step to bringing more roleplaying and fun into PvE, as the PvE portion currently seems like a forced prerequisite for PvP, rather than something to have in itself. The quest armor is a good idea, as it gives a chance to those skilled at the game to earn something, rather than farm for a month to buy coughobsidianarmorcough.

New fancy items such as chaos axes/fellblades/mursaat hammers would be cool (I think the caster professions need them too

,) but I disagree that you should be able to get them with perfect stats from collectors or otherwise. As it is, it's not super hard to find a decent fancy item with good mods (just a few percentage points lower from perfect doesn't mean the item sucks.) A perfect fancy weapon is just about the last thing worth earning in the PvE game, and making it easily obtainable would kind of destroy their appeal.

Also, with the fancy items, I think it would be nice if they were automatically customized for the player either as it is dropped, or at the end of the mission (so it can be traded to other members of the participating party.) When I played this game, I found a fiery dragon sword for my W/E a week after its release, and it was actually worth having, because it was actually special. Now, with 90% of W/Mo's running around with them, I feel almost ashamed to use a fiery dragon sword even when it actually fits my build.

Basically, I don't think the fancy items should be something "buyable" as they are now, but something that you have to really earn by yourself.

Jaythen Tyradel · Jul 14, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

/signs

I like these ideas.
I would love to have the FOW/UW (wherever you get it) armor for I think it looks neat, but I dont have the time or money to put into farming and/or buying the resources from traders to get the material one needs to get them. Questing for Obsidian armor or even a new looking armor would be nice as long as it is made challenging enough that not everyone would still get it at the first chance or relativly easily.

Galatea · Jul 14, 2005, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Jaythen:
Exactly!

The quests need to provide a good amount of challenge, so that players who just beat the last mission won't say "ALRIGHT. ARMOR NEXT." and finish everything in a day. It needs to be something that definitely takes careful planning and strategy, and because there will be a total of five quests (one for each piece of armor), it's something that definitely feels earned after all that hard work. So even players who are running around with only 1 or 2 of the pieces completed will be appreciated for having accomplished so much, but those that have attained the full set will be fully recognized by the community.

I would like to own the FoW set of armor too, for my Elementalist.. but, I don't think it's worth 2000 platinum (and I don't think I am exaggerating now.. 60-75k for the armor, plus the regular 15k materials, plus what is it, 108 shards at 3-5k a piece and 108 ecto at 8-12k a piece). Even if I did have the money for the armor, I don't think it's worth the amount of time invested into "WTB ECTO AND SHARDS, NEED 70 MORE" spam and the time that was invseted into farming for the money. Honestly, I'd feel a little pathetic if I was able to get the fissure armor now, with the current prices and such.. it would feel much more awarding if it had been given to me as a reward for lots of hard work.

Oh! And, with the option of questable armor, ANet could also design new sets.. which I think some have started to suggested in other threads (I read one recently about some wanting a more divine-like armor, rather than evil obsidian armor lol).

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Magus:

Yeah, I'm actually not sure what to suggest about weapons and perfect stats. The only reason I say that they should be more readily available is because the ready-ma PvP characters can choose from these perfect weapons already.. PvP wand and offhand combos for example that offer a combination of: Health modifier, Energy modifier, 20/20% skill cast and recharge time, or longer lasting enchantments. Within the first 5 minutes after creating a new account, a new and unskilled player can already use this weapon in PvP and have an advantage already over those PvE players he might get matched up against that spent hours working in missions, or farming, or in trade spam chat, to attain a weapon that was pretty much the same, except that it lacks the perfect 20, or that it lacks the health modifier.. I just think that these items are a little too rare in PvE, which is why the prices are so high for them in trade chat. Most of the items I identify end up having these really off stats that I have to end up merchanting them (things like Fire Staffs that require 13 Fire Magic and improve Soul Reaping when I'm a Mesmer 2nd profession).

But thanks for mentioning that the other professions need cool-looking weapons/offhand items, too.

That's a great idea that I failed to mention. The melee characters do get pretty much all the 'fancy' items of the game (magma shield, fiery dragon sword, chaos axe, etc.), and the other classes need cool stuff too. Yeah, there's the storm bow, and there's a staff somewhere.. I can't remember the name of it, but they aren't as highly coveted and don't look as appealing. Personally, if my chaos axe could work from a far range, I'd switch over from my fire staff to it lol.

What I meant to say in my earlier posts regarding weapons is that modifiers that make more sense should be found more often in the game.. And I also think that the creation of a couple of new fancy weapons that can be quested for, would be nice.

Perhaps, a weapon that matches one of the armor sets. So hypothetically, if they were to create an Eternal Set for Warriors, they would do five different quests to attain the whole set. Additionally, another quest that rewards them with an Eternal Sword and Shield could be given by another NPC (so that it wouldn't be required to have the eternal set first, or ever, before having the sword and shield). Same with other sets too, if an NPC were to give a quest for an Obsidian Staff of [Element], one made of shards and dark remains or something.

The difficulty would have to be set high enough on both these weapons and armor quests so that not everyone will be able to attain them right away, as you'd need a party with good teamwork, etc.. additionally, the armor/weapons available should really be worth the quest. Fissure armor, imo, is worthy of quests.. so would a newly created set.

As for the more common 15k armors, what do you guys suggest? I wouldn't mind seeing them still available for 15K, for those people that have so much money that it needs to be destroyed somewhere.

Aniewiel · Jul 14, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

I like this so much better than having to "farm" to get cash to buy the armor or to find the crafting things necessary, earning armor through questing or via the remote possibility of finding them.

Tsukiyomi · Jul 14, 2005, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Wow, Galatea, you sure have detailed posts! First the Auction House post, now this.

I totally agree with you on all this. I've beaten the game twice, and now I'm at Yak's Bend with my 3rd character. I would do PvP but not everyone in the guild is on at the same time and random groups aren't as good. I would love to be able to go questing for armor and such, since I REALLY want Fissure armor but can't afford it.

And I would love a craft just to do for fun. So if I have nothing to do for like 10 minutes, since that's not enough time for a mission and stuff, I could just log onto Guild Wars and do that craft.

Muh Fuh · Jul 14, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

I never read so much in my life, but yeah i like the idea of...i forgot but i like the idea! they shouldn't have never nerf the farming from certain areas, otherwise whats the point of buying 15k armor if you can't make that much money anymore ------ ------

Talesin Darkbriar · Jul 14, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

You know Galatea, you say you're not into roleplaying...but everything you mention as an enhancement is indeed contributing to roleplaying! Maybe you're just a closet roleplayer and don't know it yet.

Hey, regarding the 15k armors;
There is more than one location to get those - other than the Underworld or Fissure of Woe. Here's an even bigger newsflash; the other locations don't require ectoplasm whatsoever.

How do I know this?
Because I wear the 15k Aeromancer armor, and no ectoplasm was involved or required in its manufacture.
I won't give away more than that, but if you think you are "all finished" with the game, surprise - your not. There's quite a bit left to explore and discover yet - you just have to get out and do it.

Talesin

slasc · Jul 14, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

I like the ideas. I don't think they'll solve the problem, but every little bit of ideas like this is a move in the right direction.

I myself grow increasingly concerned with the realization that this game is not self-sustainable. Interest wanes, and unless players are encouraged to interact and be creative in a way that involves others then interest will die (along with the number of people playing)

Drakron · Jul 14, 2005, 07:59 PM // 19:59

The 15k sets being given in a quest could be a good idea but honestly I dont feel like running the infusion quest again to get it infused, in fact I manged to reach Grotto uninfused (that I assure you, its not a easy task) so I am not interessed in having to beat the last mission and having to replay a mission to get it infused and I am not going to Mineral Springs for a infusion, its a long and dificult.

I rather see replayable quests with gold rewards, it would take down farming.

Reiden Argrock · Jul 14, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

I think i'm confused, I believe I've explored the whole map, but maybe not, I know that armor in grotto and granite are different than that in UW and FoW, and they all cost 15k a piece, but I guess I'll have to go exploring some more

thanks tale...

Also I really like the idea of putting in novelties, maybe chess or checkers in the Guild hall

, or baking, oo, gotta wear an apron though so I don't get grease on me armor

Shwitz · Jul 14, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

I love the idea of quest-able "end-game" armor. Sticking a forger NPC who will craft you a fancy piece of armor if you complete some sort of zany task for him is a great idea. It'd be a fun thing to do with my char now that I've finished Hell's Precipice. Besides that, I REALLY don't want to have to resort to farming to get even the 15k armor from marhan's/granite citadel.

I could go into an at-length praise of the rest of the ideas at well, but suffice it to say that I fully support just about everything the original poster said.

slasc · Jul 14, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

I would like the idea of being able to choose both a style of armor and the type of stats associated with it. i.e. Maybe I like the Gladiator stats but hate the look of the gear.... maybe I really want platemail as far as look goes. Now, I would just have to accept the stats. I can understand why they did it that way, but I'd like the choice. (and I think the cons of the current method outweigh the pros of full choice since we really don't have a whole lot to choose from.) Heck, I could even deal with the current method if there were mutliple artworks for each type of (statwise) gear.....

Muh Fuh · Jul 14, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

heeeeeeeh

Armada Hunter · Jul 14, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

/sign

Cool ideas.

Rayea · Jul 14, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

/ signed

yeah, defintely the useless items ^^
*explains*
i like the ideas of the clothes, infact i have got images in my head of some realy nice ones. but the best way to do clothing is to make them..just clothes ^^ i mean, arours have stats and stuff...energy and armour calss and so forth, and they are customised to you when you buy them, which is why you have to give craftables with the gold, right?

what i would like is to see the clothes be in sets that are named, just like the armours.
a necromancers blouse/shirt, skirt/pants, gloves and shoes. Only, since ther are clothes, they are buyable from the clothing merchant for a smaller cost (maybe 50gp per piece) and are not customised when bought.
i mean, come on, i go into a store and i buy a shirt. i buy a size whatever shirt and its not made for just little ole me, so i can let my best friend use it too if i want

i want to be able to do that with my GW clothes

a set for each class, clothing that suits their class, but can be worn also by other classess, but not unisex. and a set for fun, called the 'Newbie Set' which is T-shirt, (preferably says 'I played GW, and all i got was this shirt!' heheh) jeans and a pair of trainers. these are just for the absolute frell of it, and so me and my friends can go play 'Newbie Keep-Away' when i finally get a guild hall

crafting dosent have to be totally for fun and useless, just make sure that the items you can make have small prices and are not as good as drops. once they become better than what the game drops, everyone, and i do mean EVERYONE! will craft, or make a BotCrafterBot and make them just to sell.

please, if your going to make the special armours, can you please also have something available for those of us who might never make it to assension ect? same set up, similar Quest thing, but less usefull level stats. i would hate to have to spend days/months trying to finish the game to get something like that and keep failing cause my strategy was not good enough, i was a player that didnt have the right connections or played at the wrong times. they dont have to even look the same. call it a End-Game-Armour-Quest traing test, if you can make it about half-way and try the 50/50 Quest Armour quests

elthrain · Jul 14, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

/signed

I hav to say Galatea you have the best ideas not to mention the deph of explination i hav ever seen, very good job with this idea and many others you hav thought of. This would be a good thing to "fix" or change about how GW works and the interaction with other players... i had to save up since the game released to get my 15k armor and i still dont hav gloves, and as you said... arena net wanted this game to be fun and hav very little grind... which at the moment the game has a good amount of grind if you want to hav anything good in the game now... all the prices are up, drops are down, arena net needs to fix this. And all the other ideas you had are perfect, well done

-Matt